Todayinah Ed. says, what if Adolf Hitler had committed more resources to Plan Z If you're interested in viewing samples of my other work why not visit Todayinah site.
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Editor says, what if Benito Mussolini had been able to commit more resources to the Regia Marina? Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). This story was published in the July 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.
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In 1936, on this day President of the Republic Manuel Azaña conceded to the inevitable partition of Spain, a decision forced upon him by the Fall of Madrid.
Flugzeugträger Part 10:
Partition of Spain by Ed & Scott PalterThe deployment of a German Volunteer Division had tipped the scales in favour of the Fascists, but the rapid implosion of the Republic had also triggered a French intervention. Mediation then swiftly followed to avoid the outbreak of a conflict between the Great Powers.
Of the Axis partners involved in the conflict, the partition hugely benefitted Benito Mussolini in particular. Early Italian disengagement enabled withdrawal from a messy conflict that could have easily sapped resources at a time when military build-up needed to accelerate. Instead, much needed resoures could be directed towards the development of a formidable Italian Navy, enabling Il Duce to pursue his dream of dominating the Mediterranean sea lanes of "Mare Nostrum" (Our Sea).
This post shares some commonality with the sister articles in the Flugzeugträger thread.
Entry posted by Todayinah Editor
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Permalinks: Post, Day. Browse Thread: Flugzeugtrager Source: Wikipedia Labels: Regia Marina, Kriegsmarine, German Navy, Manuel Azaña, Second World War. Editor says, in our timeline with the defeat of the Republic in 1939, he fled to France, resigned his office, and died in exile shortly afterwards.. Please note that in authoring this post we have repurposed a considerable amount of content from Wikipedia.
~ French considered this several times and French intervention would have ended the war.
~ I'd like to hear further details on how the Spanish Civil War ended this quickly.
~ Franco almost took Madrid in OTL. Hypothesize that Adolph uses the Franco revolt as an excuse to dump some of his unwanted [Jews, Catholics etc.] and sends a light division of WW1 vets [their families hostage to their good behavior]. Madrid falls. The French intervene to avoid being surrounded by fascists on three sides. Franco had no way to fight the French and the Republic had no way to refuse this 'gift'. Partition and exchange of prisoners follows.
~ Great AH! Lends credence to the Italian commitment of resources for naval construction later in the timeline.
~ Yes but that was the purpose. To get a larger Italian anything Italy has to not finish going bankrupt from a three year war in Spain. The easiest way to do so has Madrid falling. This pushes France to actually intervene instead of playing Hamlet and pondering intervention at endless length. Hitler had a fair number of surplus Jews. Franco was already using Moroccans so adding Jews is not out of line. Hitler also had a coven of Catholic officers from von Schleicher's group that were not trusted. Putting together a storm division of WW1 vets and some hastily trained younger men would be child's play. The German fleet could easily transport such a force [say 10K men with a few field guns] to Cadiz. Given the chaos of revolutionary Madrid one division capable of street fighting and the city falls.
~ Had this happened, it would be very interesting to see who would have run Spain after World War II. Franco, or the allies, the French, or someone else. I have been to Spain 12 times, and can seriously wonder how it would have effected that country. It is hard to find a lot o positives about Franco's tenure, other than that he did invest some time and money into the infrastructure.
~ There were separatist movements already in Catalonia and the Basque country, and I wouldn't doubt that others existed.
~ Odds are the partition holds. Remember that roughly half the country rose for the Nationalists. Given a choice of church burners or reactionaries they willingly chose reactionaries. Franco called up the reservists as he advance north. Few deserted and few of those who did deserted to the Republicans/Reds. So Franco rules a state called Spain with a capital of Madrid. Catalonia and the Basque Country are independent states. Possibly Galicia as well. There is also a Spanish Republic with a partially to totally Stalinist government centered on Valencia.
August 23
Editor says, what if Adolf Hitler had thrown a monkey wrench into Lend-Lease? muses Eric Oppen. Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). This story was published in the November 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.
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In 1941, five months after President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed the Lend-Lease bill into law (pictured), Operation Schraubenschlüssel was dismantled and US aid to Britain and China finally began in earnest.
Flugzeugträger Part 11:
Operation SchraubenschlüsselSpecifically designed to throw a "monkey wrench" into the program, the Nazi Minister of Armaments and War Production Albert Speer had organized a series of covert operations that disrupted America munition firms. This included the placement of rogue employees, destabilising buy-outs, transportation gaffes and various supply chain misinterventions that had ensured Britain and China only received a trickle of fulfilment for the large orders that they had placed.
A few short years later it emerged that the dismantling efforts had been somewhat overzealous. Some of the individuals placed under arrest with indecent haste had established dubious banking connections with the Nazis that were completely unconnected to Operation Schraubenschlüssel. One of these, the case of Prescott Bush, was taken up by the Californian Lawyer Richard Nixon who sought to restore the reputation of the private merchant bank Brown Brothers Harriman & Co.
Entry posted by Todayinah Editor
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Permalinks: Post, Day. Browse Thread: Flugzeugtrager Source: Wikipedia Labels: Dark Invader, Lend-Lease, World War 2, America, Second World War. Editor says, in authoring this article we explore a suggestion from Guest Historian Eric Oppen: What if the Germans had known war with Britain and France was likely, and had bought (secretly or otherwise) controlling interests in US munitions firms, so that when the British and French ordered stuff from them, they got a lot of dud or booby-trapped shells and ammunition? I was reading _The Dark Invader,_ by Rintelen, where he talks about the stuff he got up to, and thought that a lot more could have been done with that sort of shenanigans.
~ I was talking more about WWI, but this is very interesting. And it could have likely worked.
~ Guys, I am no great fan of Richard Nixon. But he was certainly no Nazi collaborator either, having served in the Navy during WWII. Prescott Bush's son George H. did the same...showing that the sins of the father should not be visited on the sons.
~ But, John, it seems to me that Nixon was only mentioned as a subtle dig, since I can't see any other reason for naming him...rather than simply referring to "Bush's lawyer."
~ Thinking about it a bit further...Joseph Kennedy was an appeaser who very well might have taken part in the scheme. That would have kept JFK and RFK from being elected dog catcher...and that would, in turn, have saved their lives. Talk about unintended consequences!
~ Such an economic war with the US would cause more eagerness to fight (always follow the money), but it might also cause a lot of new laws that could prevent international business down the road.
~ "International business" might well include the outsourcing of American jobs. If that could be prevented...well, that's another positive consequence.
~ Joe was an open appeaser, John, who even made speeches on the subject...so if Joe saw that other businessmen were doing business with Der Fuhrer, he would probably have joined him, no matter how much bad publicity he got. I don't even think that he would have blamed the Nazis for the death in battle of his oldest son, since his reaction was, "That damned cripple has killed my boy"...putting the blame on Roosevelt instead.
October 24
Editor says, what if Adolf Hitler had committed more resources to Plan Z. Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). This story was published in the November 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.
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In 1944, on this day the German aircraft carriers Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser are sunk in the Battle of Leyte Gulf.
Flugzeugträger Part 12:
Battle of Leyte GulfOf the German carrier group that had participated in the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor, only the Tirpitz and the Prinz Eugene now remained afloat. It appeared an unfitting reward for the German naval architects who had managed to overcome immense technical difficulties despite their inexperience in building such vessels.
And with Japan unmistakeably headed for defeat, the question for Grand Admiral Erich Raeder was whether to support the defence of the homelands, attempt a breakout attempt or even perhaps consider a scuttling operation reminiscient of the Dreadnoughts in the Scapa Flow in 1919. But unbeknown to Raeder, the German-Japanese Atomic Bomb project was nearing fruition, and both ships would be required to serve as the delivery mechanism in an audacious second strike on Pearl Harbor. It appeared than Plan Z might well change the course of the War after all.
This post shares some commonality with the sister articles in the Flugzeugträger thread.
Entry posted by Todayinah Editor
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Permalinks: Post, Day. Browse Thread: Flugzeugtrager Source: Wikipedia Labels: Dark Invader, Lend-Lease, World War 2, America, Second World War. Editor says, in reality the Japanese aircraft carrier Zuikaku, and the battleship Musashi were sunk. Please note that in authoring this article we have re-purposed content from Wikipedia.
~ Such things in the imagination, in flight, and on drawing boards -- reason why World War II was as hard-fought as it was. Any little, or big, thing then could have seriously altered the last several decades as we knew them. Allied troops wondered such things when hearing from the German refugees ahead the Soviet advance.
~ A "German-Japanese" A-bomb project is an unlikely divergence in and of itself, since Japan didn't really have the resources and Germany, for all its alliance of convenience with Tokyo, would more likely have preferred atomic weapons to remain solely in the hands of "Aryans." As for its "nearing fruition" by 1944, that would have taken better luck and less infighting in the German nuclear effort. Where's the POD?
~ Unfortunately for Hitler...but fortunately for all the rest of us...before the war he had driven away a non-Aryan physicist named Albert Einstein.
~ Don't know much about the German aircraft carriers, but this sounds interesting. Maybe the Italian fleet got stuck in, too? In OTL they had some elements in the Far East, and in this TL they might have been able to send some really big ships.
~ Using an atomic bomb in hopes of scaring the Allies into defeat would work about as well as Pearl Harbor on scaring the Americans into not joining the war in Europe. They would get mad.
December 27
Editor says, what if Adolf Hitler had committed more resources to Plan Z. Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). This story was published in the December 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.
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In 1922, on this day the Japanese aircraft carrier Hōshō ("phoenix in flight") became the first purpose built aircraft carrier to be commissioned in the world. Her aircraft group participated in the Shanghai Incident in 1932 and in the opening stages of the Sino-Japanese War in late 1937.
Flugzeugträger Part 13:
Commissioning of HōshōThe small size of the ship and her assigned airgroups (usually around 15 aircraft) limited the effectiveness of her contributions to combat operations. As a result, the carrier was placed in reserve after her return to Japan from China and she became a training carrier in 1939.
During World War II, Hōshō participated in the Battle of Midway in June 1942 in a secondary role. The narrow Japanese victory was assured by the support of the German double aircraft carrier group that had been stranded in the Far East at the outbreak of war.
This article is a post from the Flugzeugträger thread in which Adolf Hitler had committed more resources to Plan Z.
Entry posted by Todayinah Editor
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Permalinks: Post, Day. Browse Thread: Flugzeugtrager Source: Wikipedia Labels: Battle of Midway, Hōshō, Aircraft Carrier, Far East, Second World War. Editor says, in reality the United States Navy decisively defeated an Imperial Japanese Navy attack against Midway Atoll, inflicting irreparable damage on the Japanese fleet
~ This is some scary shiznit right here...
~ it does not take much of a change for Japan to win the Battle of Midway, the three American aircraft carriers and the aircraft stationed on Midway Islands themselves completly failed to co-oridinate their attacks. It was only by pure luck that the three dive bomber squandrons all searching independently for the Japanese arrived on the scene within moments of the torpedo bomber attacks having taken place and drawing the Japanese fighters away. If the American dive bombers had arrived as little as ten minutes later, or if they had arrived one by one like the Torpedo bombers, the outcome would have been significantly changed.
~ Japan could've seized a lot more of the Pacific: Australia, maybe even moving around to harass India.
December 8
Editor says, what if Adolf Hitler had committed more resources to Plan Z? Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). This story was published in the July 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.
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In 1938, on this day the German Kriegsmarine aircraft carrier codename Flugzeugträger A was christened the Graf Zeppelin and launched from the Deutsche Werke in the port of Kiel.
Flugzeugträger Part 1: Launching of the Graf ZeppelinGrand Admiral Erich Raeder congratulated the German naval architects1 for overcoming immense difficulties despite their inexperience in building such vessels. The design challenges included a complement of cruiser-type guns for commerce raiding and defense against British cruisers, American and Japanese carriers, designed along the lines of task-force defense, used supporting cruisers for surface firepower, which allowed flight operations to continue without disruption and kept carriers out of undue risk of damage or sinking from surface action.
But the truth was that Raeder himself had saved Plan Z by providing the caste iron guarantees needed for the Fuehrer (who exercised his supreme authority through the Oberkommando der Marine) to sustain his interest in the programme. Because in May 1941, the Graf Zeppelin, along with the Tirpitz, Bismark and Prinz Eugene successfully mounted a German invasion of Iceland.
This post shares some commonality with the sister articles in the Flugzeugträger thread.
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Permalinks: Post, Day. Browse Thread: Flugzeugtrager Source: Wikipedia Labels: Graf Zeppelin, Kriegsmarine, Aircraft Carrier, Iceland, Second World War. Editor says, in authoring this bluesky scenario we have collaborated with guest historian Scott Palter and have repurposed content from Wikipedia. 1) Wikipedia reports ~ a combination of political infighting between the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe, wrangling within the ranks of the Kriegsmarine itself and Adolf Hitler's waning interest all conspired against the carriers
~ Taking over Iceland might not have been so easy, even with a carrier.
~ The Germans never really developed an amphibious capability. Had they invaded England, they would have been forced to use canal boats as landing craft. While the development of a carrier would have been interesting in terms of the Battle of the Atlantic, an invasion of Iceland would have required the use of resources in a much smaller direction (landing craft, amphib vehicles, etc.).
~ British garrison of Iceland was one weak division and based on Bismark raid RN/RAF were not too good at spotting German task forces. Iceland would not have been a sure thing but the odds were better than Crete, especially given surprise. Holding it is of course another matter. The primary use of the carrier would be transient air superiority followed by the planes being moved to a shore base.
~ If Reichsmarshal Goerting cooperated, an important condition, this entirely changes the equations in the NE. Atlantic.
In particular Germany has monoplanes on its carrier, as opposed to biplanes on the British and dive bombers - their was going to be a seagoing version of the Stuka.
If iceland is captured it changes the eqquations again as their is no "land bridge" to fwrry paints to Britain via Greenland and Iceland and FDR cannot intervenewithout declaring war by becoming responsible for Iceland
Also the Hood and Prince of Wales can be attacked by land based aircraft.
~ Is Germany moving on Iceland enough for the Americans to act, or are they still going to wait for an outright attack?
~ I doubt if FDR will act if the Germans are there first, intead ofreplacing the British, he needed Pearl Harbour as a pretext for war.
~ With help from the _Graf Zeppelin_ and its aircraft, the _Bismarck_ and _Tirpitz_ would be even more formidable. I foresee real, real bad problems for the Murmansk run.
~ The problem is not the Murmansk Run but the North Atlantic convoys and command of the Western Approaches.
As I sais on another thread, with Rudolf hess be coming to britain to complete the peace treaty with Hitler?
~ Invading Iceland is a justifiable casus belli for America, as that is a definite threat to America, and an infringement of American interests and the Western Hemisphere
July 1
Editor says, what if Adolf Hitler had committed more resources to Plan Z? Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). NB Peter Strasser was the chief commander of German Imperial Navy Zeppelins during World War I. This story was published in the July 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.
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In 1940, on this day the German Kriegsmarine aircraft carrier codename Flugzeugträger B was christened the Peter Strasser (in honour of the World War I leader of the naval airship) and launched from the Deutsche Werke in the port of Kiel. Deployed in a carrier group alongside the Tirpitz, her main war-time role was to wreck havoc amongst the Arctic convoys.
Flugzeugträger Part 2: Launching of the Peter StrasserThis strategic mission objective was laid down by Grand Admiral Erich Raeder (and after some angry exchanges) finally signed off by the Fuehrer who exercised his supreme authority through the Oberkommando der Marine. Not only did this approval ensure that Plan Z received the necessary level of resourcing, but it also enabled the German naval architects1 to overcoming immense difficulties despite their inexperience in building such vessels. The design challenges included a complement of cruiser-type guns for commerce raiding and defense against British cruisers, American and Japanese carriers, designed along the lines of task-force defense, used supporting cruisers for surface firepower, which allowed flight operations to continue without disruption and kept carriers out of undue risk of damage or sinking from surface action.
This post shares some commonality with the sister articles in the Flugzeugträger thread.
Entry posted by Todayinah Editor
© Alternate Historian, 2004-.Story Tags
Permalinks: Post, Day. Browse Thread: Flugzeugtrager Source: Wikipedia Labels: Graf Zeppelin, Kriegsmarine, Aircraft Carrier, Iceland, Second World War. Editor says, in authoring this bluesky scenario we have collaborated with guest historian Scott Palter and have repurposed content from Wikipedia. 1) Wikipedia reports ~ a combination of political infighting between the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe, wrangling within the ranks of the Kriegsmarine itself and Adolf Hitler's waning interest all conspired against the carriers
~ Forgive the ignorance on my part, but who's Peter Strasser? Chief commander of German Imperial Navy Zeppelins during World War I
~ In my opinion, this is definitely what a German carrier would have been used for: starving England and the Soviet Union. Here's something to ponder: how would Plan Z have changed U-boat allocation? After all, one fleet carrier would have taken the resources of perhaps 20 U-boats.
~ I agree: this is what a Nazi carrier would most likely have been used for, certainly at that point in time. Even in World War I, the Germans recognized the vulnerability of Britain, as an island nation, to being starved into submission by having its sea trade blocked; that was the chief point of its submarine blockade in that war. It failed then primarily because the U.S. became involved--which suggests that Germany would have to be careful not to create a Lusitania-type incident with its carrier.
June 16
Editor says, what if Adolf Hitler had committed more resources to Plan Z? Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). This story was published in the July 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.
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In 1939, on this day the Nippon Kaigun and Kriegsmarine began a summer-long joint exercise that resulted in the German double aircraft carrier group being stranded in the Far East at the outbreak of war.
Flugzeugträger Part 3: Convergence of Operation Z & Plan ZNeedless to say, the internment was a source of huge frustration to Grand Admiral Erich Raeder. His Plan Z rearmament program had been explicitly authorized by the Anglo-German Naval Agreement, but then the real negotiations had begun in earnest - with the Fuehrer.
But then fate intervened, and the Grand Admiral was finally given a historic opportunity to demonstrate that the German Navy could make a real difference. Because in late 1941, Raeder's patience was finally rewarded by a private visit from Chuichi Nagumo. The Japanese Admiral wanted to discuss the feasibility of German carriers Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser supporting his Kido Butai in a pre-emptive attack on an undisclosed allied military base. The success of the joint exercises had demonstrated that such a mission was operationally possible, although matters of command needed to be delicately discussed. And yet a complete coincidence gave Raeder the assurance that needed. Because Nagumo had chosen the codename Operation Z. It was more than the fickle finger of fate, it was destiny. Because the strike from the Axis third wave force destroyed drydocks and fuel storage depots, putting the eventual US victory back by two whole years.
This post shares some commonality with the sister articles in the Flugzeugträger thread.
Entry posted by Todayinah Editor
© Alternate Historian, 2004-.Story Tags
Permalinks: Post, Day. Browse Thread: Flugzeugtrager Source: Wikipedia Labels: Graf Zeppelin, Kriegsmarine, Aircraft Carrier, Iceland, Second World War. Editor says, in authoring this bluesky scenario we have collaborated with guest historian Scott Palter and have repurposed content from Wikipedia. 1) Wikipedia reports ~ a combination of political infighting between the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe, wrangling within the ranks of the Kriegsmarine itself and Adolf Hitler's waning interest all conspired against the carriers
~ Interesting...
~ Say goodbye to the entire Pacific Fleet if this happened. Japan could have waltzed onto the beaches of Hawaii and Alaska if they so desired in this scenario.
~ Actually, it might not. If effective U.S. entry into the war is delayed by two years, then when the A-bomb is developed it may be used against German cities first, since Germany would still be fighting in August 1945. (The Manhattan Project porbably wouldn't be held up in this scenario.) Even if it's only the Pacific war that's affected. things would go hard for the Philippines and Australia. And a further delay might mean that Russia would have ended up playing more significant role in fighting Japan, possibly leading to a Korea-like postwar partitiion.
~ In 1947, Harry Truman was president, rather than the ailing Franklin Roosevelt. I wonder what effect this would have had on the allied negotiations at the Yalta Conference, where even Stalin was shocked at how serious ill the president seemed to be.
~ Eric, I'm not sure that A-bombs would have been used against German cities in any scenario. Western Europe is just too crowded and there were too many Americans of German descent in the US to keep such a move from being politically dangerous.
~ 1. How do Raeder and Nagumo physically meet? Even if Raeder is stranded in Japan he can come back to Germany via the Soviet Union which was allied to Hitler 1939-1941.
2. The third strike require a change in Nagumo's orders from Tokyo rather than two more carriers. The orders did not make the Pearl Harbor infrastructure a priority. The orders DID make getting back quickly to support the advance into the East Indies a priority. The second strike had the bulk of Japan's lost planes. Logic said the third would be worse. He had beaten the estimates by not losing any carriers [plans had presumed he would lose two]. However the loss in air crews had been noticeable and Japan was not geared to replacing them [in a fit of bureaucratic stupidity Japan maintained extremely high peacetime standards on air crew training and thus graduated very few replacements; this changed only after the Solomons campaign].
~ Two extra carriers would give the Axis a huge push in the initial war (Pearl Harbor, Midway, Coral Sea), but I agree with Mr. Palter that eventually they'd run dry and the Allies would push back. Eventually...
~ The two biggest changes having the German carriers are:
1. Solves FDR's problem of how to be at war with Germany. If Germans are partially responsible for Pearl we are at war.
2. May tempt the Japanese to follow up their raid into the Indian Ocean with a full invasion of India trying for a link up with Kleist's forces advancing on Baku and Rommel's advancing on Cairo.
~ Would the German commanders have cooperated with the Japanese in offensive operations without direct approval from Berlin? And once Operation Barbarossa got going, would the Japanese have been drawn in, and would the Germans' fleet shut off Vladivostok?
~ Japanese needed more than two carriers plus support ships to tackle Ivan. Like a Panzer Army...
January 27
Editor says, what if Adolf Hitler had committed more resources to Plan Z? Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). This story was published in the July 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.
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In 1939, to challenge the naval power of the United Kingdom the Fuehrer Adolf Hitler ordered the re-equipment and expansion of the Nazi German Navy.
Flugzeugträger Part 4:
Plan ZLike all of the unfortunate implementors of Hitler's madcap plans, it soon became apparent to its architect Grand Admiral Erich Raeder that "Plan Z" was hopelessly unachievable because there was far too much competition for common internal resource to build a Kriegsmarine of ten battleships, four aircraft carriers, three battlecruisers, three old panzerschiffe, twelve new panzerschiffe, five heavy cruisers, thirty-sx light cruisers M Class, twenty-four light cruisers typ spähkreuzer, sixty-eight destroyers, ninety torpedo boats and two hundred forty-night U-boats by 1945. And the political infighting was further complicated by intra-service rivalry; as usual Goëring was throwing a spanner in the works by insisting that all aviation assets should belong to the Luftwaffe.
To overcome this comand confusion, Raeder played directly to the Fuehrer's military fantasies, floating a number of implausible mission plans including an attack on the US Atlantic Fleet moored at Norfolk, Virginia. The main result of this gambit was a significant reduction in the number of U-boats. And instead of ambitiously building a purpose-built aircraft carriers from the keel up, the Admiral took the more realistic judgement to convert pre-dreadnoughts by building landing capability on the hull. This expedience was necessary in the game of catch-up, being precisely how the Royal Navy had built their first carriers HMS Eagle and HMS Furious. Because Raeder simply did not have the luxury of time, inside of six months war would break-out and he could not follow in the slow considered steps of a programme launched by the Royal Navy over fifteen years before.
This post shares some commonality with the sister articles in the Flugzeugträger thread.
Entry posted by Todayinah Editor
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Permalinks: Post, Day. Browse Thread: Flugzeugtrager Source: Wikipedia Labels: Plan Z, Kriegsmarine, German Navy, Adolf Hitler, Second World War. Editor says, in authoring this thread we have repurposed content from Wikipedia and the Alternate History Discussion Group. Also we are grateful for an insight from former serviceman Matthew Dattilo of the Today in History web site.
~ Sounds like somebody's been reading "Third Reich Victorious"....
~ I've often wondered what the end-result would have been if Hitler poured a lot of $$$, time, and resources into the Kriegsmarine. Not sure if the Germans would have beaten the Brits in the end, but definitely the power-hold that the Royal Navy had over the Atlantic would have been MUCH more precarious and weakened as a result of a resurgent German Navy. At best (for the Third Reich), a bolstered Kriegsmarine could have held the entire length Channel for Germany to mount a successful Operation Sea Lion.
I'd like to see Part II of this article.
~ They'd have been a lot better off putting the money into LOTS more U-Boats. Churchill said after the war that the U-Boats were the only things that ever really worried him. A hundred more U-Boats, combined with converting them to be mainly minelayers (mine warfare is much more efficient than prowling around with torpedoes) could have starved Britain out. Oh, and NOT going after Russia until AFTER the UK was out of business would have been a good idea, too.
~ They would have been better off selling the entire Navy to the US for oil and food deliveries. The German economy was by the mid-30's working at over 100% of capacity [yes there was mammoth waste but that was built in the system; the Fuhrer Reich was simply bureaucratically far more inept that the Kaiser Reich]. So more of X means less of something else. Essentially a bigger navy means smaller air force and army. Given that the Fall of France was a near run thing and that Barbarossa failed it is hard to argue that what was needed was more useless ships. Germany can never win a naval building race with the UK much less the entire Anglosphere.
~ Looking at a much bloodier Battle of Britain and Battle of the Atlantic. Fortunately, there aren't so many islands for hard-fought island-hopping in the Atlantic. Wonder if it would be enough to bring Portugal into the war?
~ Here's a thought: had Germany indeed devoted more resources to the Kriegsmarine, would the invasion of the Soviet Union have taken place? It was certainly a central pillar of Hitler's plans, but imagine a war in which Operation Barbarossa was pushed back to 1944, after England had been isolated to the point of capitulation by a stronger German surface fleet.
~ Did a Book report on this in school. 250 more Uboats then Germany actually had an England would have been starved into submission. Churchill talked a big game about never surrendering but the fact is without food England would have sucked it up and done so.
Don't know if that would have changed the over all victory by the allies but England would have gone down and the war would have been a whole lot more hard fought.
~ @Matthew - with that much smaller an army/AF does France fall? The six weeks war with France was a quite near run thing. If the German blitz i a tad less strong fair chance the army group in Belgium escapes the trap and France does not fall.
@Mike - that many more U-boats means the UK counters with more corvettes and jeep carriers, fewer tanks. These things have a reaction, counter logic. By the fall of 1940 the British Empire without the US was outproducing Germany in most weapons categories. Making more small ships and fewer tanks/big bombers was an easy switch for the Empire as they inherently had more than enough small ship building capacity. The bottleneck was BIG ships.
~ Hitler would have had to start his naval buildup years before 1939 to have had any realistic chance of matching the British. And unless he could smehow have kept it secret, that big a buildup of the Kriegsmarine would have telegraphed his aggressive intentions even more than his Army buildup, which Britain and France could kid themselves was aimed only eastward.
~ Alas, Eric, Britain and France were very good at kidding themselves, having been through The Great War 20 years earlier,with its terrible loss of life. Students were even signing to Oxford Pledge, never again to fight for king and country...but of course, they wound up having to do it all the same. The government even knew that Germany was re-arming, but despite Churchill's urgent pleas, it did not...or could not...stop it, until it was almost too
~ @Jackie - British could not afford a world war. So they delayed rearming for a few years until it was obvious they had no choice. They then prioritized the RN and RAF over the Army. The screwy economics of the Sterling Block and the perpetual dollar shortage are easy to wish away [Churchill did] but in fact were quite accurate.
June 22
Editor says, what if Adolf Hitler had committed more resources to the Kriegsmarine? Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). This story was published in the July 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.
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In 1941, on this day the Red Army launched a full-blown attack on Northern Germany and Romania that confirmed the worst Nazi fears about the true extent of Stalin's military buildup.
Flugzeugträger Part 5:
The Zhukov PlanFor the past two years, the Führer had diverted limited resources to the Nazi German Navy. Significantly, he had also overruled Hermann Goëring by giving the Kriegsmarine operational control of aviation assets aboard the aircraft carriers Peter Strasser and Graf Zeppelin. Both decisions had enabled Grand Admiral Erich Raeder to pull off the invasion of Iceland, a stunning victory that redefined the balance of power in the Western hemisphere.
And yet the hidden price of that pyrrhic victory became immediately apparent as soon as German counter-espionage teams intercepted code "icebreaker". Significantly outnumbered on the ground, the Luftwaffe was unable to turn the tables by striking a decisive blow on the Red Airforce. And within days Hitler's regime was facing a crushing defeat.
This post shares some commonality with the sister articles in the Flugzeugträger thread.
Entry posted by Todayinah Editor
© Alternate Historian, 2004-.Story Tags
Permalinks: Post, Day. Browse Thread: Flugzeugtrager Source: Wikipedia Labels: Plan Z, Kriegsmarine, German Navy, Adolf Hitler, Second World War. Editor says, in authoring this thread we have repurposed content from Wikipedia and IHR. We have also built upon suggestions and comments provided by Scott Palter and Matt Dattilo earlier in the thread.
~ This is a qualified maybe. In OTL Stalin was in the midst of both a radical army reorganization and a radical force enlargement in 1941. Both would have to have been put aside in 1940 for this to happen.
~ Interesting spin on Barbarossa...
~ Stalin definitely was doing his reorganization in prep for a European operation, but he wanted to wait a few more years to get everything ready (ideally, to clean up Europe as he did post-war). But, Hitler got the jump on him. If Stalin started early, then Europe is his. Spooky.
~ Interesting to consider post-war Europe without the devastating losses suffered by the USSR in the OTL. I think a third world war would have been a much stronger possibility.
~ A crushing defeat for Hitler in 1941? No Pearl Harbor, D-Day or Holocaust? I'll drink to that!
~ Oh, and with no Pearl Harbor, there is no Hiroshima, either. It just gets better and better! And as for Stalin taking over all of Europe...I think the logistics would have limited him to Russia's traditional conquered territories, like Poland. That was SO traditional, in fact, that Catherine the Great used the Polish throne for a toilet, no kidding.
~ I think Hitler would have been able to rally the German people to his banner (so to speak) to resist the Russians, much in the same way Stalin did -- many Germans who opposed Hitler was also anti-Communist and very pro-Germany types. This very well could have turned out to be a bloody affair on almost WWI levels. Could an invasion of Romania have ushered in a Yugoslavian/German alliance against the Reds?
~ There'd have been a Holocaust, just not one directed mainly/exclusively at the Jews. Stalin had a long list of people who he thought needed to be dead. That said, in 1941 the Red Army was in no shape for anything of the sort, and without the Nazis' atrocities to steel the soldiers' spines, they'd have had a lot of trouble with defections and turncloaks.
~ Hitler only got the jump on Stalin. Stalin would have inveded Europe at some point.
~ Mike, of course Stalin would have invaded Poland, Hungary and other nations of Eastern Europe...so the question is, would Stalin have gone on to conquer Western Europe as well? Or was it just too far away.
~ I don't see the Red Army as readyin '41 to inflict a "crushing defeat" on the Nazis. Remember, this is the same Red Army which was forced back to the suburbs of Moscow by the Wehrhacht before it finally turned the tide (with western aid).
~ And Stalin did have a nasty habit of killing his best generals. Among many other nasty habits, needless to say.
~ @Eric - the best units were packed in close to the frontier and got pocketed early. Plus Stalin was in the middle of one of his reorganization/expansion drives so there were a plethora of half formed units, especially mech and tech services. Makes the Suvorov thesis unlikely. The cards read a Soviet attack in 1942-43 not 1941.
~ Red Army was still reeling from the loss of experienced officers and weapons engineers during the Great Purges. They were very good at attacking the Baltic States, they succeeded against Finland, barely, and stabbed Poland in the back. They were in no position to take on hitler, certainly not with Gehlen and Canaris watching the Russians' every move. An attack of this kind might have crossed the Vistula, but would not have passed the Oder-Neisse.
~ 1941 the head of Foreign Armies East was Kinzel. Gehlen takes over OTL 1942. Also German military intelligence against the Soviets was pathetic. They were totally surprised 1941 by how many trained reserves the SU had. They were surprised by Stalin's December counterattacks and by his ability to carry them out. They were surprised by the planet offensives that surrounded Stalingrad and almost won the war. They were repeatedly surprised by the strength and direction of the Soviet offensives in Ukraine from Kursk to the spring 44 thaw. They were totally fooled by Bagration. Germany was good at operational level OOB but hopeless beyond.
~ It is difficult to believe that Soviets were ready to take on Germany in 1941. Or while German and Soviet forces eyed each other across occupied Poland, Goring's Luftwaffe wouldn't have been overflying the new border. Remember, central Poland is a vast plain, not the hills and forests of the Ardennes, where tank armies could hide between hills and under trees. (German aircraft carriers in 1941 are problematic. It not only takes many years to design and build them, it also takes a long time to learn how to use them. Just ask the Soviets, who never figured it out, or the Chinese, who have decided to start slow and small. Only three countries ever really mastered carrier warfare by 1941 -- the US, Britain, and Japan, and they had been at it a long time.)
~ The Germans did a decent job on tactical and lower level operational intelligence. They were normally pretty good on OOB and immediate reserves. That said Ivan spoofed them repeatedly. The depth of the Kursk defenses were a surprise. The early December counterattacks at Moscow were a surprise. Bagration was a total surprise. Maskirovka was a Soviet specialty.
December 14
Editor says, what if Adolf Hitler had committed more resources to the Kriegsmarine? Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). This story was published in the July 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.
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In 1942, on this day a jittery Winston Churchill wrote the shortest official memorandum in British history to his First Sea Lord Sir Dudley Pound demanding "Where is TIRPITZ?".
Flugzeugträger Part 6:
Where is TIRPITZ?She was the second of two Bismarck-class battleships built for the German Kriegsmarine. Named after Grand Admiral Alfred von Tirpitz, the architect of the earlier Kaiserliche Marine, the ship was laid down at the Kriegsmarinewerft Wilhelmshaven in November 1936 and her hull was launched two and a half years later.
Deployed in a double carrier group alongside the Peter Strasser and the Graf Zeppelin, her main war-time role was to wreck havoc amongst the Arctic convoys. And of course the source of Churchill's concern was the deteriorating situation on the Eastern Front. Because at first the invasion of Northern Germany and Romania known as the Zhukov Plan had made great progress. But now it was clear that Stalin's assault was premature and his build-up insufficient to defeat the Nazis. And due to the operation of the Kriegsmarine, the Allies problem was getting resupply through to the Russians.
This post shares some commonality with the sister articles in the Flugzeugträger thread.
Entry posted by Todayinah Editor
© Alternate Historian, 2004-.Story Tags
Permalinks: Post, Day. Browse Thread: Flugzeugtrager Source: Wikipedia Labels: Plan Z, Kriegsmarine, German Navy, Adolf Hitler, Second World War. Editor says, in out timeline, the reply was reassuring: she was stuck safely in a Norwegian fjord near Trondheim undergoing repairs. Please note that in authoring this post we have repurposed a considerable amount of content from Wikipedia.
~ It's interesting (and a little scary) to contemplate a German two-carrier group operating in the air gap area of the North Atlantic. Long term, though, the German carriers would have became the hunted instead of the hunters as Allied air coverage of the Atlantic improved.
~ Nightmare fuel....
~ Definitely a bigger, badder Battle of the Atlantic.
~ Putting _Tirpitz_ and _Bismarck_ together with two German carriers would have given the RN some real big, bad problems. It took a big chunk of the RN just to take down Bismarck all by herself...imagine if she'd had a friend along that was just as tough and mean, and air cover!
~ It was almost comical how the British Feared the German Battle ships.
June 27
Editor says, what if Adolf Hitler had committed more resources to the Kriegsmarine? Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). This story was published in the July 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.
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In 1942, on this day the Kriegsmarine's double aircraft carrier group spearheaded "Operation Herkules", the Italo-German invasion of the island of Malta.
Flugzeugträger Part 7:
Operation HerculesThe mission had been approved at a meeting between Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini on 29-30 April. Through combined air and sea landings, the Axis powers hoped to eliminate Malta as a British air and naval base and secure an uninterrupted flow of supplies across the Mediterranean Sea to their forces fighting in Libya and Egypt.
The Axis plan to invade Malta had its origin in Italian military studies conducted in the mid-1930s during Italy's conquest of Ethiopia. By 1938, the Italian army command had estimated the amount of sea transport it would require to move significant military forces into North Africa and identified the seizure of Malta as a necessary prerequisite. The Regia Marina (Italian Navy) had initially showed little interest in the seabourne plan, but the mission priority had been radically changed by the pre-emptive strike of Operation Zhukov, the Soviet invasion of Northern Germany and Romania. Due to the existence of a fleet in being, resupply through the Arctic had been considered impossible; instead the Western allies were delivering huge quantities of armanents through Persia which was the ultimate target of General Rommel's drive through the North Africa/Middle East theatre.
This post shares some commonality with the sister articles in the Flugzeugträger thread.
Entry posted by Todayinah Editor
© Alternate Historian, 2004-.Story Tags
Permalinks: Post, Day. Browse Thread: Flugzeugtrager Source: Wikipedia Labels: Operation Hercules, Kriegsmarine, German Navy, Adolf Hitler, Second World War. Editor says, in out timeline he rapidly changing war situation in North Africa resulted in the plan's cancellation in November 1942. Please note that in authoring this post we have repurposed a considerable amount of content from Wikipedia.
~ I have to wonder about the survivability of German carriers in the Med. The British has a strong presence there in 1942, including significant air assets. Interesting possibility, though.
~ The Germans would have needed some serious luck to make this work...
~ It'd be a heck of a fight with a lot of damage on both sides. But, Italian ports would be a lot closer for repairs and a boon for the Axis to bounce back.
~ The Germans would probably want to pull a bunch of U-boats from the Atlantic to screen their surface fleet, and that would take pressure off the British. Churchill said that the only thing that really worried him in the war was the U-boats strangling Britain.
November 26
Editor says, what if Adolf Hitler had committed more resources to the Kriegsmarine? Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). This story was published in the July 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.
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In 1904, on this day the master Nazi Counterfeiter Bernhard Krüger was born in Slovakia's High Tatra mountains.
Flugzeugträger Part 8:
Operation BernhardAs a Schutzstaffel Sturmbannf"hrer (SS Major) set up a team of counterfeiters to develop the appropriate rag-based paper with the correct watermarks for pounds sterling and later, US dollars. Although the task of breaking the code to generate valid serial numbers was extremely difficult, the printing press of "Operation Bernhard" produced notes that were almost impossible to distinguish from the real currency (in the 1940s, the Bank of England still maintained leather-bound volumes recording all serial numbers).
The original aim was to flood enemy countries with counterfeit currency that would create inflation and wreck their economies. However by the late nineteen thirties, the Nazis were more concerned with the German economy being wrecked by the war-time build-up. And so the much needed hard currencies were used to buy raw materials for Plan Z the re-equipment and expansion of the Nazi German Navy (Kriegsmarine) ordered by Adolf Hitler on January 27, 19371. This was partly achieved by a laundering operation in which gold was sold by Swiss banks, obviating the need for the Wehrmacht to launch Operation Tannenbaum, the high risk invasion of Switzerland. Because at this stage, the Nazis were heavily relying upon the theft of currency reserves, gold and diamonds from occupied countries in order to maintain liquidity. Fortunately, SS Major Bernhard had found a way to raid Switzerland without the huge costs of mountain warfare.
This post shares some commonality with the sister articles in the Flugzeugträger thread.
Entry posted by Todayinah Editor
© Alternate Historian, 2004-.Story Tags
Permalinks: Post, Day. Browse Thread: Flugzeugtrager Source: Wikipedia Labels: Operation Bernhard, Kriegsmarine, German Navy, Bernhard Kruger, Second World War. Editor says, in out timeline by the time Sachsenhausen was evacuated in April 1945 the printing press had produced 8,965,080 banknotes with a total value of £134,610,810. Please note that in authoring this post we have repurposed a considerable amount of content from Wikipedia.
1)In this timeline, brought forward by two years to 1937 to allow for lead times. Big ships need 3-4 years to build and have ready for sea duty. It can be done faster [USN WW2] but that takes an economy less messed up than Nazi germany before speer's mid-war rationalizations
~ Scary...
~ WW2 saw a bunch of off-the-wall things like this that sort of almost worked like the Japanese nuke program that seem to have produced a fizzle/small bomb explosion a few days before the war ended.
~ This might have worked. Another way might have been to exchange them in banks in countries like Turkey and the US (before the declaration of war on the US).
~ No way to get them to the US. A lot were passed in Turkey. The spy that sold Germany the Overlord plans was paid in counterfeit and caught trying to pass the bills. Here's the quote from wiki: German spy Elyesa Bazna (codename "Cicero") was paid with counterfeit notes, and unsuccessfully sued the German government after the war for outstanding pay.
~ I don't know where Scott Palter is getting his info re Japan's nuclear program, but my understanding is that the Japanese, although they hafd some top-flight physicists, were nowhere near producing even a "fizzle" bomb at the time of the war's end. They simply didn't have the resources to spare. It's worth recalling that at its height the Manhattan Project was consuming a full ten percent of the electrical power output of the United States. This claim strikes me as most likely originating with apologists for Hiroshima who want people to believe the A-bombing was OK because Japan was getting ready to do it to us.
~ This list seems to remove url's when I post them but here goes. Wikipedia. Story is out there. A small test bomb and / or fizzle in what is now North Korea just before the surrender. Now maybe it is real and maybe it isn't. Also there is a long road from a Trinity type test to a deliverable weapon. However it has been out there for years and the rumors were out there for decades before.
~ And it removed the url again. Go to wikipedia and then Japanese nuclear weapons program and then the subsection saying new evidence of Japanese success.
~ What if the currency-sabotage system had been able to infiltrate the Lend-Lease program, devastating US-UK trade and driving a major economic wedge between them?
~ How does currency sabotage mess up Lend Lease in a command economy?
June 28
Editor says, what if Benito Mussolini had been able to commit more resources to the Regia Marina? Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). This story was published in the July 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.
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In 1937, on this day at the Ansaldo Shipyard in Genoa Il Duce ordered an expansion of the Regia Marina (Royal Italian Navy) to include the building of the Aquila ("Eagle") and Sparviero ("Sparrowhark") double aircraft carrier force mirroring (and perhaps rivaling) the "Plan Z" construction undertaken by the Kriegsmarine.
Flugzeugträger Part 9:
Operation HatsBenito Mussolini saw the control of the Mediterranean Sea as an essential prerequisite for expanding his "New Roman Empire" into Nice, Corsica, Tunis, and the Balkans. He described the Mediterranean as "Mare Nostrum" (Our Sea) and ensured that Italian naval building accelerated during his tenure.
With the German double aircraft carrier force committed to the Atlantic, it would fall upon the Regia Marina to lead the Battle of the Mediterranean. And eventually the operation of Malta Convoys ("Operation Hats") would pave the wave for the the Italo-German invasion of the island of Malta. And yet the development of a formidable Italian Navy was a luxury resulting from the early Italian disengagement in the Spanish Civil War, a messy conflict that could have easily sapped resources at a time when military build-up needed to accelerate. Instead, the Fall of Madrid (and subsequent implosion of the Republic) was entirely due to the fortuitous deployment of a German Volunteer Division that had tipped the scales in favour of the Fascists.
This post shares some commonality with the sister articles in the Flugzeugträger thread.
Entry posted by Todayinah Editor
© Alternate Historian, 2004-.Story Tags
Permalinks: Post, Day. Browse Thread: Flugzeugtrager Source: Wikipedia Labels: Regia Marina, Kriegsmarine, German Navy, Operation Hats, Second World War. Editor says, in our timeline the aircraft carriers Aquila and Sparviero were never completed and most air support during the Battle of the Mediterranean was supplied by the land-based Regia Aeronautica. Please note that in authoring this post we have repurposed a considerable amount of content from Wikipedia.
~ If Italy had concentrated on control of the Med (and possession of Malta) instead of remaining in North Africa and contributing to the Eastern Front (with one division, I believe), I think they would have been a much bigger player in the war. Would the Allies have invaded an Italy that was in control of the surrounding sea lanes? Maybe not. Churchill's desire to invade Greece may have come to fruition after all.
~ They wouldn't have been able to fully control the Mediterranean without Gibraltar, so we could have expected an Italian attempt on the Rock after the successful invasion of Malta.
~ The British would have taken Italy quite a bit more seriously if they'd had a better Navy. More resources would have been tasked to dealing with them, which means that the Germans would have had a freer hand elsewhere.
~ If it'd been able to pin up the British fleet and seize the French ships at Mers-el-Kebir, they'd have a hefty force. If not Gibraltar, what about the Suez?
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