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Editor says, what if the Central Powers had won the Great War? Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). This story was published in the December 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.
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In 1919, on this day the seventh Chancellor of the German Empire Georg Friedrich Graf von Hertling passed away in Berlin. He was seventy-five years old. An installment from the Central Powers Victorious thread.
Central Powers Victorious Part 1 Death of a PuppetHertling became professor of philosophy at the University of Munich, and while professor he published books on Aristotle (1871) and on Albertus Magnus (1880). From 1875 to 1890, and again from 1893 to 1912, he was a member of the Reichstag, and from 1909 to 1912 he led the Centre (Catholic) Party faction in the Reichstag. In 1891, the Regent of Bavaria made him a life member of the upper house of the Bavarian Landtag.
As leader of the largest party in the Bavarian Landtag, in 1912 Hertling was appointed Bavarian Minister-President and Minister for Foreign Affairs by Luitpold, Prince Regent of Bavaria. King Ludwig III later elevated him to the rank of Count. Following the outbreak of World War I, Hertling supported the policy of Chancellor Theobald von Bethmann Hollweg but declined to become his successor in 1917. After the fall of Georg Michaelis in November of that year, however, he accepted appointment as German Chancellor and Minister-President of Prussia.
Given his age and conservatism, he was not equipped to overcome the influence of the military high command, led by Paul von Hindenburg and Erich Ludendorff. Like Michaelis before him, he was increasingly seen as a puppet of Hindenburg and Ludendorff, who constituted a virtual military dictatorship in the last year of the war.
In the final year of his life, Imperial Germany was a victor power making a formal transition to military dictatorship. There was growing evidence that von Hertling was fighting to reassert civilian authority. A power struggle developed. But it was simply not possible to turn the clock back five years, and in any case Ludendorff was seriously considering a formalization of the military dictatorship at the point when von Hertling passed away. Ludendorff was determined to ensure that he would have no successor...
Entry posted by Todayinah Editor
© Alternate Historian, 2004-.Story Tags
Permalinks: Post, Day. Browse Thread: Central Powers Victorious Source: Wikipedia Labels: Georg von Hertling, German Empire, Central Powers, Great War, Germany. Editor says, thanks to Jeff Provine for his contribution to the development of this post. We have repurposed significant amounts of content from Wikipedia.
~ A victorious Imperial Germany turning into a military dictatorship? NOT a good combination...
~ Does this negate the rise of Hitler? And is the win accomplished? Is it a military victory or an exhausting stalement and armistice?
~ Would Ludendorff have that much influence after the war?
The Kaiser detested him, and he wasn't all that popular. Hindenburg was, but with the war over he doesn't need Ludendorff any more. No doubt Germany will still be on the authgoritarian side, but it will be Hindenburg's Germany rather than Ludenfdorff's.
~
the military dictatorship of Ludendorf and Hindenburg is unlike to last after a Central Powers victory.
Srangely enough, in order for this to mtake place. t5he Chancellor must throw his weight about and make sure the "military dictatorship" of the dynamic duo does not take place - as it was Ludendorf's plan, imitating the plan in East prussia in 1914 whiuch lead to defeat in the summer of 1918.
1) Col Max Hoffman, L and H's military genius comes with them, instead of remaining in the East.
2) The Chancellor and the Emperor insist they follow his plan and he has a free hand.
3) The is thus no intended Battle of Annihilation intended in Flandres, as Ludendorf's theories tell him the British army is the strongst army and not time lost by diversions.
4) The break through in June at Marne II in the middle and head for Paris. the French as they always said, fall back on Paris.
There is a cease-fire with the French, the germans threaten the Channel ports.
The Brtish and Lloyd-George now have what they have been talking about and feared - 1- 3 million hostages in France.
landsdowne is swiftly sent to Basel to accept Cousin Willi's Peace Office presented by Alfred Duke of Clarence and Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Cousins George's and Willi's uncle and British royal duke.
Landsdowne signs.
Meanwhile Woodrow Wilson and Pershing are wrong footed, not being in position to attack in time.
FDR as the young assistant naval secretary in France inspecting "his" marine corps is furious.
5)
~ Lookng forward to the sequel to this where Ludendorff and his new wife convert Germany to neopaganism,
~ Unclear how the Central Powers pulled it off. Did the U.S. actually honor its pledge of neutrality in this TL, instead of tilting more and more toward Britain before formally entering the war in 1917? And if so, why? Was there no Lusitania? Did Wilson's adviser Col. Robert House die or get the sack--or was Wilson even elected? Details, please.
~ The US did not "tilt more and more towards Britain". Wilson had leaned toward the Allies in 1915, but in 1916, quarrels over blacklists of US firms had left Anglo-American relations worse than for generations. They were continuing to deteriorate until those clowns in Berlin shot themselves in the foot by adopting unrestricted u-boat warfare.
~ The central Powers can do it provided they do not bodge the offensive of 1918 - which is what Ludendorff did by wasting time and resources in diversionary attacks, trying to lure away forces from Flanders.
Finally in July the french attack his rear and the troops were attacking SE in the opposite direction at Marne II.
The Flanders offensive, although the artillery has arleady been sent there, is then cancelled.
See
1918 The Unexpected Victory.
Victory 1918 John Palmer
August 28
Editor says, what if the Central Powers had won the Great War? Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). This story was published in the December 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.
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In 1916, on this day Paul von Hindenburg succeeds Erich von Falkenhayn, with whose strategy he disagreed, as Chief of the German General Staff. An installment from the Central Powers Victorious thread.
Central Powers Victorious Part 2 von Falkenhayn dismissedBoth his deputy Erich Ludendorff and principal staff officer Max Hoffmann also transferred from the Eastern Front. Although they reluctantly agree to appoint Ludendorff Quartermaster-General, he does not get the supremacy he desires because the Chancellor and the Emperor insist that Hindenburg and Ludendorff follow Hoffmann's plan and he has a completely free hand.
It takes eighteen months, but he formulates the winning strategy that delivers victory to Central Powers. The break through finally comes at the middle of the front in June at Marne II and the German armies surge towards Paris. The French as they always said, fall back upon the defence of their capital. There is then a cease-fire with the French, while the Germans threaten the Channel ports. The British and Lloyd-George now have what they have been talking about and feared - one to three million hostages in France.
Landsdowne is swiftly sent to Basel to accept Cousin Willi's Peace Office presented by Alfred Duke of Clarence and Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Cousins George's and Willi's uncle and British royal duke. Landsdowne signs. Meanwhile Woodrow Wilson and Pershing are wrong footed, not being in position to attack in time. FDR as the young assistant naval secretary in France inspecting "his" marine corps is absolutely furious.
Because Hindenburg and Ludendorff (pictured) had no control over the military strategy, they had spent the majority of their time focusing on war time control of the economy. A domination had inevitably developed, and they intended to convert this into a military dictatorship at the soonest opportunity. von Hertling was determined to prevent this, but he only had a year to live, and by the time of his death, the office of Chancellorship was on the cusp of abolition.
Entry posted by Todayinah Editor
© Alternate Historian, 2004-.Story Tags
Permalinks: Post, Day. Browse Thread: Central Powers Victorious Source: Wikipedia Labels: Paul von Hindenburg, German Empire, Central Powers, Great War, Germany. Editor says, thanks to Richard Roper for his contribution to the development of this post. We have re-purposed significant amounts of content from Wikipedia.
[1] this does not happen in OTL.
~ Fight! Fight!
~ "War-time control of the control?" Fixed - thanks, Ed
And the world might have been a better place. A lot of people tend to conflate them, but Wilhelmine Germany (much less Austria-Hungary) was Paradise next to the Third Reich.
~ We still could have had WW II with this end to the Great War. And, Hitler still could have gained control of Germany, but it might have been a tougher fight for him to get it. And, he could have been shot in the process.
None of the bomb attempts on him worked in later years.
~ No . NoVersailles = no Nazis and Hitler. the disturbed conditions of the post-war years do not occur and there is no Weimar Republic.
Hitler ends up a bad artist with a gallery in Vienna.
~ Ludendorff would have done well as the controller of the German wartime economy - he was actually very good at that and was a burocrat. Ggerman production goes up and the economy is organised for Total War like the British.
~ I don't quite understand this. When was the victorious German advance? Why did it succeed? Remember, the German economy wasn't mismanaged, it was simply overwhelmed and ran out of resources -- by the end of the war, they were pulling plumbing out of houses for lead to make bullets. Efficiency only goes so far when people are forced to eat nothing but turnips.
~
IT IS SET FOR THE KAISERSCHACHT SUCCEEDING IN 1918.
LUDENDORFF IS SENT TO BE A BUROCRAT RUNNING THE GERMAN ECONOMY LIKE LLOYD-GEORGE DID FOR BRITAIN IN THE MINISTRY OF MUNITIONS FOR TOTAL WAR.
THIS WAS A GERMAN WEAKNESS.
He is good at this.
Max Hoffman is set to do the military tactics.
The Germans use tanks - they only need a small number - for the breakthrough, and the deception/ use of tactical aircraft tactics similar to ourselves.
~
PART 3
HINDENBURG HAD RETIRED AND WAS BROUGHT OUT OF RETIREMENT IN AUGUST 1914 TO HEAD THE OPERATIONS IN THE EAST, WITH LUDENDORFF TRANSFERRED FROM THE GENERAL STAFF when the general in East Prussia wanted to retreat to the Vistula, the victory of Tannenburg followed, but it was Max Hoffman's plan.
Ludendorf on his arrival in Berlin in 1916 after Falkenhayn is sacked, gets the job of organising the German war economy for Total War, Hindenburg continues as the figurehead whilr Max Hoffman, who has come with them is made responsible for military planning.
Hoffman quickly closes down the battle of Verdun, thus avoiding the capture of a large number of German prisoner in the counter-offensive. He arranges a bombardment of the areas the Germans withdraw from when the French advance into them.
Meanwhile it appears they are now massing on each side of the neck of the Verdun salient and are preparing to cut it off.
Joffre and Mangin react by withdrawing men from Verdun.
Meanwhile Hoffman orders, in as far as it can be done in time, the "Combined Arms" stormtrooper infiltration tactics to be used in counter-offensives on the Somme.
This disconcerts Haig and the French.
Predicting the attack at Messines Ridge and Passchendaele, Hoffman uses the same tactics of bombardment of an area evacuated and Combined Arms tactics are used, with even more disasterous results for Haig.
Ludendorff is quite good at organising war production, which he did in the occupied areas in the East, as he was a burocrat and had always worked in military organisation and transport.
The rise in German production is noted by Lloyd-George in intelligence reports, as he is the former Minister of Munitions, whilst worrying even more about casulaties in view of the worse military situation to OTL.
Hoffman insists on tanks, including lighter fast ones for the pursuit and not just to break through the front line.
He devises Cavalry Brigades, similar to those used by the Reds in the Russian Wars of Intervention, and infantry divisions coming along behind.
These combine whatever tanks are available with cavalry, mounted infantry and mobile artillery, with supply transport in one unit.
He devised new tactics similar to our own - decepetion and great attention toconcelaing where the attack will actually come with diversions and noise and use of aircraft to make attacks on troop formations and supplies behind the lines.
This was the origin of the Panzer Division in OTL.
Haig is convinced the attack will come in Flanders, the French believe it will come in Lorraine and Champagne.
The result is Hoffman's offensive in 1918 goes straight through the centre, with 100,000 cavalry creating disruption behind the lines.
The french fall back on Paris, as the always said they would do, and have difficulty coping with the Cavalry brigade tactics, as do the British cavalry Haig hastily sends south.
Our mounted infantry are in the Middle East.
The French government prepare yet again to flee to Bordeaux, Paris is put under martial law as a seige is feared. French troops race back to defend Paris.
Joffre and Mangin are unable to deal with the panci of the French politicians and reluctantly recommend a cesae-fire.
Lloyd-George receives and equally panic-stricken dispatch from Haig at British GHQ. This means the new German cavalry brigades can threaten the Channel Ports.
Also the Germans have tanks.
This triggers the greates fears of the British cabinet, as the Conservative members have discussed andfeared the dangers of us having 1 -3 million hostages in France.
What happened to the German offensive in Flanders?
Unfortunately the intelligence reports appear to have been mistaken.
It is at this point the Kaiser's Peace Offer arrives, clearly devised by Wilhelm's uncle and co-ordinated with Hoffman.
Landsdowne, the veteran foreign secretary and himself argunbg for a negotiated peace, is sent by Le Havre and Paris to Basel to receive it from the German inister plenipotentary, the Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, aka Alfred Duke of Clarence and Edward VII's brother.
Lloyd-George telegramms Landsdowne to sign an armistice.
He sees advantages in positioning himself as a leading member of the peace conference and appears before the press at hte front door of No. 10 to announce "Peace with Honour".
He particularrly fears further casualties and does not want the intended offensive of 19919, particualrly as they will have to rely on the Americans for it.
Haig and the General Staff have already advised they believe the war will go on till 1920, at hte best Masy, but probably october, and that was before the German break-through.
Poincaire spends some time pounding his desk in Paris and shouting "Albion La Perfide!", but he had his generals sign the original ceae-fire.
On his return, Landsdowne is greated at Victoria Station by a huge crowd,wild cheering, and off-duty soldiers car him ontheir shoulders to his waiting car.
August 10
Editor says, what if the Central Powers had won the Great War? Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). This story was published in the December 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.
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In 1914, Hindenburg had retired and was brought out of retirement to head the Operations in the East, with Ludendorff transferred from the General Staff. An installment from the Central Powers Victorious thread.
Central Powers Victorious Part 3 Recalled Hindenburg heads EastHindenburg heads East, when the general in East Prussia wanted to retreat to the Vistula.
The victory of Tannenburg followed, but it was Col. Max Hoffman's, his chief of staff's, plan. Ludendorff on his arrival in Berlin in 1916 after Falkenhayn is sacked, gets the job of organising the German war economy for Total War, Hindenburg continues as the figurehead while Max Hoffman, who has come with them is made responsible for military planning.
Hoffman quickly closes down the battle of Verdun, thus avoiding the capture of a large number of German prisoner in the counter-offensive. He arranges a bombardment of the areas the Germans withdraw from when the French advance into them. Meanwhile it appears they are now massing on each side of the neck of the Verdun salient and are preparing to cut it off. Joffre and Mangin react by withdrawing men from Verdun. Hoffman orders, in as far as it can be done in time, the "Combined Arms" storm-trooper infiltration tactics to be used in counter-offensives on the Somme.
This disconcerts Haig and the French. Predicting the attack at Messines Ridge and Passchendaele, Hoffman uses the same tactics of bombardment of an area evacuated and Combined Arms tactics are used, with even more disasterous results for Haig.
Ludendorff is quite good at organising war production, which he did in the occupied areas in the East, as he was a bureaucrat and had always worked in military organisation and transport. The rise in German production is noted by Lloyd-George in intelligence reports, as he is the former Minister of Munitions, whilst worrying even more about casualties in view of the worse military situation to OTL. Hoffman insists on tanks, including lighter fast ones for the pursuit and not just to break through the front line. He devises Cavalry Brigades, similar to those used by the Reds in the Russian Wars of Intervention, and infantry divisions coming along behind. These combine whatever tanks are available with cavalry, mounted infantry and mobile artillery, with supply transport in one unit. He devised new tactics similar to our own - deception and great attention to concealing where the attack will actually come with diversions and noise and use of aircraft to make attacks on troop formations and supplies behind the lines.
This was the origin of the Panzer Division in OTL. Haig is convinced the attack will come in Flanders, the French believe it will come in Lorraine and Champagne or there will be another attempt to take Verdun. The result is Hoffman's offensive in 1918 goes straight through the centre, with 100,000 cavalry creating disruption behind the lines. The French fall back on Paris, as the always said they would do, and have difficulty coping with the Cavalry Brigade tactics, as do the British cavalry Haig hastily sends south. Our mounted infantry are in the Middle East. The French government prepare yet again to flee to Bordeaux, Paris is put under martial law as a siege is feared. French troops race back to defend Paris.
Joffre and Mangin are unable to deal with the panic of the French politicians and reluctantly recommend a cease-fire. Lloyd-George receives an equally panic-stricken dispatch from Haig at British GHQ. This means the new German cavalry brigades can threaten the Channel Ports. Also the Germans have tanks, which is a total surprise.They appear to be using our own tactics devised as new by the British General Staff.
This triggers the greatest fears of the British cabinet, as the Conservative members have discussed and feared, the dangers of us having 1 -3 million hostages in France.
What happened to the German offensive in Flanders? Unfortunately the intelligence reports appear to have been mistaken. It is at this point the Kaiser's Peace Offer arrives, clearly devised by Wilhelm's uncle and co-ordinated with Hoffman. Landsdowne, the veteran foreign secretary and himself arguing for a negotiated peace, is sent by Le Havre and Paris to Basel to receive it from the German Minister Plenipotentary, the Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, aka Alfred Duke of Clarence and Edward VII's brother. Lloyd-George telegrams Landsdowne to sign an armistice.
He sees advantages in positioning himself as a leading member of the peace conference and appears before the press at the front door of No. 10 to announce "Peace with Honour".
He particularly fears further casualties and does not want the intended offensive of 1919, particularly as they will have to rely on the Americans for it. Haig and the General Staff have already advised they believe the war will go on till 1920, at the best May, but probably October, and that was before the German break-through. Lloyd-George believed we were going to lose and had been assembling a collection of documents which exonerated him.
Poincaire spends some time pounding his desk in Paris and shouting "Albion La Perfide!", but he had his generals sign the original cease-fire. On his return, Landsdowne is greeted at Victoria Station by a huge crowd, wild cheering, and off-duty soldiers on leave carry him on their shoulders to his waiting official car.
Entry posted by
Richard Roper
© Richard Roper, 2011-.Story Tags
Permalinks: Post, Day. Browse Thread: Central Powers Victorious Source: Wikipedia Labels: Paul von Hindenburg, German Empire, Central Powers, Great War, Germany. Editor says, thanks to Richard Roper for writing this installment.
~ Interesting...and what would the postwar world be like? Would the Germans back down from their original wild ideas?
~ Where did the Germans obtain the horses? How did they produce the tanks? With what sort of fuel? Where did they obtain the lead for their guns? By 1916, the only real hope for the Central Powers was for a peace restoring the status quo ante bellum, perhaps with an independent Poland and a neutralized Serbia. In Eschange, Germany might have had to neutralize Alsace-Lorraine.
~ Eric: The postwar world would probably be a nightmare.
~ Agreed; an authortorian but NOT Nazi-dominated government. Maybe in this TL, Hitler goes back to painting postcards, or dies an early death in some back alley.
~ Given his job as a combat messenger, more likely he would have become crow food.
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