Editor says, what if Adolf Hitler had committed more resources to the Kriegsmarine? Please note that the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of the author(s). This story was published in the July 2012 edition of Changing the Times Magazine.

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Editor says, in authoring this thread we have repurposed content from Wikipedia and IHR. We have also built upon suggestions and comments provided by Scott Palter and Matt Dattilo earlier in the thread.

Scott Palter commented on 2012-06-23 02:00:11 ~ This is a qualified maybe. In OTL Stalin was in the midst of both a radical army reorganization and a radical force enlargement in 1941. Both would have to have been put aside in 1940 for this to happen.

Chris Oakley commented on 2012-06-23 14:15:06 ~ Interesting spin on Barbarossa...

Jeff Provine commented on 2012-06-23 15:37:51 ~ Stalin definitely was doing his reorganization in prep for a European operation, but he wanted to wait a few more years to get everything ready (ideally, to clean up Europe as he did post-war). But, Hitler got the jump on him. If Stalin started early, then Europe is his. Spooky.

Matthew Dattilo commented on 2012-06-23 21:19:48 ~ Interesting to consider post-war Europe without the devastating losses suffered by the USSR in the OTL. I think a third world war would have been a much stronger possibility.

Jackie Rose commented on 2012-06-23 21:51:01 ~ A crushing defeat for Hitler in 1941? No Pearl Harbor, D-Day or Holocaust? I'll drink to that!

Jackie Rose commented on 2012-06-23 22:10:37 ~ Oh, and with no Pearl Harbor, there is no Hiroshima, either. It just gets better and better! And as for Stalin taking over all of Europe...I think the logistics would have limited him to Russia's traditional conquered territories, like Poland. That was SO traditional, in fact, that Catherine the Great used the Polish throne for a toilet, no kidding.

Jared Myers commented on 2012-06-23 22:38:43 ~ I think Hitler would have been able to rally the German people to his banner (so to speak) to resist the Russians, much in the same way Stalin did -- many Germans who opposed Hitler was also anti-Communist and very pro-Germany types. This very well could have turned out to be a bloody affair on almost WWI levels. Could an invasion of Romania have ushered in a Yugoslavian/German alliance against the Reds?

Eric Oppen commented on 2012-06-24 02:26:46 ~ There'd have been a Holocaust, just not one directed mainly/exclusively at the Jews. Stalin had a long list of people who he thought needed to be dead. That said, in 1941 the Red Army was in no shape for anything of the sort, and without the Nazis' atrocities to steel the soldiers' spines, they'd have had a lot of trouble with defections and turncloaks.

Mike commented on 2012-06-24 02:54:21 ~ Hitler only got the jump on Stalin. Stalin would have inveded Europe at some point.

Jackie Rose commented on 2012-06-24 03:04:01 ~ Mike, of course Stalin would have invaded Poland, Hungary and other nations of Eastern Europe...so the question is, would Stalin have gone on to conquer Western Europe as well? Or was it just too far away.

Eric Lipps commented on 2012-06-24 15:56:32 ~ I don't see the Red Army as readyin '41 to inflict a "crushing defeat" on the Nazis. Remember, this is the same Red Army which was forced back to the suburbs of Moscow by the Wehrhacht before it finally turned the tide (with western aid).

Jackie Rose commented on 2012-06-24 17:05:06 ~ And Stalin did have a nasty habit of killing his best generals. Among many other nasty habits, needless to say.

Scott Palter commented on 2012-06-24 18:52:30 ~ @Eric - the best units were packed in close to the frontier and got pocketed early. Plus Stalin was in the middle of one of his reorganization/expansion drives so there were a plethora of half formed units, especially mech and tech services. Makes the Suvorov thesis unlikely. The cards read a Soviet attack in 1942-43 not 1941.

Stan Brin commented on 2012-06-28 12:25:39 ~ Red Army was still reeling from the loss of experienced officers and weapons engineers during the Great Purges. They were very good at attacking the Baltic States, they succeeded against Finland, barely, and stabbed Poland in the back. They were in no position to take on hitler, certainly not with Gehlen and Canaris watching the Russians' every move. An attack of this kind might have crossed the Vistula, but would not have passed the Oder-Neisse.

Scott Palter commented on 2012-06-28 16:02:03 ~ 1941 the head of Foreign Armies East was Kinzel. Gehlen takes over OTL 1942. Also German military intelligence against the Soviets was pathetic. They were totally surprised 1941 by how many trained reserves the SU had. They were surprised by Stalin's December counterattacks and by his ability to carry them out. They were surprised by the planet offensives that surrounded Stalingrad and almost won the war. They were repeatedly surprised by the strength and direction of the Soviet offensives in Ukraine from Kursk to the spring 44 thaw. They were totally fooled by Bagration. Germany was good at operational level OOB but hopeless beyond.

Stan Brin commented on 2012-06-29 03:20:03 ~ It is difficult to believe that Soviets were ready to take on Germany in 1941. Or while German and Soviet forces eyed each other across occupied Poland, Goring's Luftwaffe wouldn't have been overflying the new border. Remember, central Poland is a vast plain, not the hills and forests of the Ardennes, where tank armies could hide between hills and under trees. (German aircraft carriers in 1941 are problematic. It not only takes many years to design and build them, it also takes a long time to learn how to use them. Just ask the Soviets, who never figured it out, or the Chinese, who have decided to start slow and small. Only three countries ever really mastered carrier warfare by 1941 -- the US, Britain, and Japan, and they had been at it a long time.)

Scott Palter commented on 2012-06-29 05:40:25 ~ The Germans did a decent job on tactical and lower level operational intelligence. They were normally pretty good on OOB and immediate reserves. That said Ivan spoofed them repeatedly. The depth of the Kursk defenses were a surprise. The early December counterattacks at Moscow were a surprise. Bagration was a total surprise. Maskirovka was a Soviet specialty.